@Trocatintas I would be more concerned about the environmental impacts in China, which are existing since capitalism decided to have a cheap workbench in a former agricultural developing country. Ironically China still insists today to keep the state "developing country" because UN allows such countries to emit more CO2 etc. Bitcoin is our smallest problem regarding emissions. Capitalism and consumerism is our biggest.
Sure, let's turn this into a sinophobic argument. That will surely save us.
By the way, you'll like this bit:
China, by a large margin, has been the biggest Bitcoin mining nation. To offset the carbon emissions from China's coal-intensive Bitcoin mining operations in 2021–2022, about 2 billion trees should be planted, covering an area equivalent to the sum of Portugal and Ireland or 45,000 times the area of Central Park in New York City. Aside from China, the world’s top 10 Bitcoin mining nations in 2020–2021 included the United States, Kazakhstan, Russia, Malaysia, Canada, Germany, Iran, Ireland, and Singapore.
@Trocatintas What exactly is sinophobic here? And then you come up with obsolete information about China, Bitcoin mining was banned back in 2021: cnbc.com/2021/07/03/bitcoin-mi… Not Bitcoin builds coal power plants, it is corrupt policiticans and consumerism.
And about the "bit I'll like": Do this calculation please again for Chinas Industries. It's an eye opener. I'll help you with that: China is building NEW coal power plants for 250 TW, those new plants alone could power Bitcoin 15(!!) times. asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Envi… yeah, sure, but Bitcoin is our problem... You all fall for the distraction of corporate greed.
@Trocatintas I do not question it. Another misconception of you. Bitcoins ecological footprint is not ideal, yet it is better than most countries or industries, especially the real big ones. The article was written by the system (politicians) which rules you are playing after. Numbers are from 2021, so almost 3 years old, and a lot has changed since then e.g. China and Kazakhstan as main mining locations with coal have been shut down. They want to distract you from the real problem, therefore you are talked into "Bitcoin is bad" without understanding the consequences on a broader picture. Inflation is the motor for an ever growing economic system that results in climate change and pollution. This must end. Using deflationary assets like Bitcoin can actually help, because it removes the pressure of everlasting growth and consumerism. You would only spend it for really important and sustainable things as Bitcoin will be more worth in fiat currency later. Some would not understand it before they actually hold a significant amount of bitcoin.
Yup, you didn't read it because some of the studies it is based of go up to 2023 although that is really besides the point, and presenting articles about how the Bitcoin mining operations moved about isn't really addressing their climate impact.
I think that if we were to have some sort of hope, we were supposed to have stopped those coal plants or any other burning of fossil fuels that sustain capitalism and it's endless hunger for unsustainable growth a decade ago. And cryptocurrency is already showing the usual appetite for never ending growth that "naturally" came with other capitalist tools.
Just as a side note, I would more readily trust the scientists behind those studies than I would the mouthpieces for a corporation like Comcast or a neoliberal publication like Nikkei.
about how the Bitcoin mining operations moved about isn’t really addressing their climate impact.
You mean moving from countries that produce energy mainly from coal to countries that use mainly geothermal/water/wind/solar energy is not addressing climate impact? Really? In the end only renewables are cheap enough for Bitcoin, as coal has much higher cost (digging, transporting, environmental costs etc). Using it for bitcoin mining is only possible if the government decided to subsidize these costs for the industry or private households. They are never subsidized for Bitcoin. Don't blame Bitcoin for countries not sticking to the Paris climate treaty.
And cryptocurrency is already showing the usual appetite for never ending growth
Another misconception again... 1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin and there will be only 21 Million. No growth. I find it bemusing how you are still try to defend t
about how the Bitcoin mining operations moved about isn’t really addressing their climate impact.
You mean moving from countries that produce energy mainly from coal to countries that use mainly geothermal/water/wind/solar energy is not addressing climate impact? Really? In the end only renewables are cheap enough for Bitcoin, as coal has much higher cost (digging, transporting, environmental costs etc). Using it for bitcoin mining is only possible if the government decided to subsidize these costs for the industry or private households. They are never subsidized for Bitcoin. Don't blame Bitcoin for countries not sticking to the Paris climate treaty.
And cryptocurrency is already showing the usual appetite for never ending growth
Another misconception again... 1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin and there will be only 21 Million. No growth. I find it bemusing how you are still try to defend the politicians which taught you to find Bitcoin bad, successfully distracting you from the elephant in the room.
scientists behind those studies than I would the mouthpieces for a corporation like Comcast or a neoliberal publication like Nikkei.
So you shoot the messenger for all messages you are not agreeing to? Sure...
Now you are shooting me as the messenger. The "science" does not reflect the actual change in mining since 2021.
Try to find relevant and actual studies. The one you showed has data from digiconomist.com inside, which is a stooge of the dutch national bank, namely Alex de Vries. And his data is taken for granted, but it is based on even older data from 2018. You can research that yourself.
And again you are still neglecting the elephant in the room, instead you keep on hitting the butterfly.
Sure, I am the only one discussing recent facts instead of simply pointing to an outdated study. According to a 2023 ACS Sustainable Chemistry & Engineering paper, directing the surplus electricity from intermittent renewable energy sources such as wind and solar, to bitcoin mining could reduce electricity curtailment, balance the electrical grid, and increase the profitability of renewable energy plants—therefore accelerating the transition to sustainable energy and decreasing bitcoin's carbon footprint: pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssu…
Now I am out, too. I will not try anymore to change your opinion which is prefabricated by central bankers. Promised.
Don't get me wrong @Murkas Wylander I'm still undecided about the bitcoin energy issue on several levels, and find evolution and discussion utterly interesting as arguments come and go, sometimes it's " a country like Denmark" or hundereds of billiontrillion people like Pakistan where most of them have most likely no energy at all while AI right now is wasting energy like hell for pictures with six fingers and off course Wallstreet and Times square don't waste light at all ..
Anyway: Your China arguments are BS if you don't mention that China is installing more green energy than the rest of the world combined, is hitting his Paris accord targets, lowered the solar cell price by a thousand % for the whole world and you don't talk about the CO2 Emissions "western" countries account for since ever .. your's is just just right wing extremist whataboutism. full stop
Inflation is the motor for an ever growing economic system that results in climate
... mehr anzeigen
Don't get me wrong @Murkas Wylander I'm still undecided about the bitcoin energy issue on several levels, and find evolution and discussion utterly interesting as arguments come and go, sometimes it's " a country like Denmark" or hundereds of billiontrillion people like Pakistan where most of them have most likely no energy at all while AI right now is wasting energy like hell for pictures with six fingers and off course Wallstreet and Times square don't waste light at all ..
Anyway: Your China arguments are BS if you don't mention that China is installing more green energy than the rest of the world combined, is hitting his Paris accord targets, lowered the solar cell price by a thousand % for the whole world and you don't talk about the CO2 Emissions "western" countries account for since ever .. your's is just just right wing extremist whataboutism. full stop
Inflation is the motor for an ever growing economic system that results in climate change and pollution. This must end. Using deflationary assets like Bitcoin can actually help, because it removes the pressure of everlasting growth and consumerism. You would only spend it for really important and sustainable things as Bitcoin will be more worth in fiat currency later.
That was a funny read! Anyway bitcoin adoption is out of FOMO of people who have no clue what bitcoin is about and are storing their coins on websites, ETF's or "hard ware wallets" instead of using a simple FLOSS electrum.org wallet.
It's like the pied piper for everyone, crypto anarchists over libertarians, wall street traders and bankers to the Bukeles and fakebook and telegram filter bubble influencer know it all flat earthers! All lined up like the chickens of Max und Morits on the block chain of bread crumbs.
It's a finite resource, as finite as the planet, coal and oil. And the next ice age will come sooner or later, only that there will be no more fossil fuels to heat the people that destroyed there ecological niche because of a consumerist civilization.
your’s is just just right wing extremist whataboutism.
Okay, so that is your explanation? lol. You certainly want the easy and wrong ones ;) I am since 11 years into bitcoin, and running Full Nodes and Lightning Nodes for years. I studied economics. I knew, this economically not so knowledgable forum will have a hard time to to understand the concepts and effects properly (e.g. you don't understand the benefits of ETFs for institutions from a process level), therefore you try to push me in a political corner, which seems the only thing you are able to ;)
See, you are just triggered by China, that is not the point. It is also not the point that they push solar power. They still keep building so many coal power plants, even without mining Bitcoin. climateactiontracker.org/count… So your argumentation is going completely the wrong route.
Script Kiddie
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • •Александр
Als Antwort auf Script Kiddie • • •@Script Kiddie > all you find is money ...
Cash can be burned so it might come in handy.
𝕕𝕚𝕒𝕟𝕖𝕒 🏳️⚧️
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Script Kiddie mag das.
Noam Bergman
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •.. ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ bitPickup mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm mag das.
David
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Mulkurul
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •David
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Paper rectangles, yes, but you can't burn metal disks, and burning plastic debt rectangles is a bad idea. It produces toxic smoke.
Александр
Als Antwort auf David • • •@David Metal discs can be made into something too and I have quite a bit of these expired plastic rectangles which I keep and reuse.
Bitcoins and all things related like ASIC miners and hardware wallets could be kind of disappointing loot in the future...
𝕕𝕚𝕒𝕟𝕖𝕒 🏳️⚧️
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Andrew Pam
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •.. ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ bitPickup mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •No need to imagine, happened already, what's your point?
bitcoin .. a scarce comodity, as scarce as a healthy environment ..
btw
Is money a commodity?
It it actually scarce?
Script Kiddie mag das.
Trocatintas
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •unu.edu/press-release/un-study…
UN Study Reveals the Hidden Environmental Impacts of Bitcoin: Carbon is Not the Only Harmful By-product
United Nations UniversityMurkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •I would be more concerned about the environmental impacts in China, which are existing since capitalism decided to have a cheap workbench in a former agricultural developing country. Ironically China still insists today to keep the state "developing country" because UN allows such countries to emit more CO2 etc.
Bitcoin is our smallest problem regarding emissions. Capitalism and consumerism is our biggest.
David
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •relevant to this discussion
The Lost Cause by Cory Doctorow. Tor. 2023. ISBN 978-1-0359-0223-1.
Trocatintas
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Sure, let's turn this into a sinophobic argument. That will surely save us.
By the way, you'll like this bit:
Murkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •@Trocatintas
What exactly is sinophobic here? And then you come up with obsolete information about China, Bitcoin mining was banned back in 2021:
cnbc.com/2021/07/03/bitcoin-mi…
Not Bitcoin builds coal power plants, it is corrupt policiticans and consumerism.
And about the "bit I'll like": Do this calculation please again for Chinas Industries. It's an eye opener.
I'll help you with that: China is building NEW coal power plants for 250 TW, those new plants alone could power Bitcoin 15(!!) times.
asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Envi…
yeah, sure, but Bitcoin is our problem... You all fall for the distraction of corporate greed.
Bitcoin mining is now easier and more profitable as algorithm adjusts after China crackdown
MacKenzie Sigalos (CNBC)Trocatintas
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Murkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •I do not question it. Another misconception of you. Bitcoins ecological footprint is not ideal, yet it is better than most countries or industries, especially the real big ones.
The article was written by the system (politicians) which rules you are playing after. Numbers are from 2021, so almost 3 years old, and a lot has changed since then e.g. China and Kazakhstan as main mining locations with coal have been shut down.
They want to distract you from the real problem, therefore you are talked into "Bitcoin is bad" without understanding the consequences on a broader picture.
Inflation is the motor for an ever growing economic system that results in climate change and pollution. This must end. Using deflationary assets like Bitcoin can actually help, because it removes the pressure of everlasting growth and consumerism. You would only spend it for really important and sustainable things as Bitcoin will be more worth in fiat currency later.
Some would not understand it before they actually hold a significant amount of bitcoin.
Kazakhstan's deadly protests hit bitcoin, as the world's second-biggest mining hub shuts down
MacKenzie Sigalos (CNBC)Trocatintas
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Yup, you didn't read it because some of the studies it is based of go up to 2023 although that is really besides the point, and presenting articles about how the Bitcoin mining operations moved about isn't really addressing their climate impact.
I think that if we were to have some sort of hope, we were supposed to have stopped those coal plants or any other burning of fossil fuels that sustain capitalism and it's endless hunger for unsustainable growth a decade ago.
And cryptocurrency is already showing the usual appetite for never ending growth that "naturally" came with other capitalist tools.
Just as a side note, I would more readily trust the scientists behind those studies than I would the mouthpieces for a corporation like Comcast or a neoliberal publication like Nikkei.
.. ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ bitPickup mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Murkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •@Trocatintas
You mean moving from countries that produce energy mainly from coal to countries that use mainly geothermal/water/wind/solar energy is not addressing climate impact? Really? In the end only renewables are cheap enough for Bitcoin, as coal has much higher cost (digging, transporting, environmental costs etc). Using it for bitcoin mining is only possible if the government decided to subsidize these costs for the industry or private households. They are never subsidized for Bitcoin. Don't blame Bitcoin for countries not sticking to the Paris climate treaty.
... mehr anzeigenAnother misconception again... 1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin and there will be only 21 Million. No growth.
I find it bemusing how you are still try to defend t
@Trocatintas
You mean moving from countries that produce energy mainly from coal to countries that use mainly geothermal/water/wind/solar energy is not addressing climate impact? Really? In the end only renewables are cheap enough for Bitcoin, as coal has much higher cost (digging, transporting, environmental costs etc). Using it for bitcoin mining is only possible if the government decided to subsidize these costs for the industry or private households. They are never subsidized for Bitcoin. Don't blame Bitcoin for countries not sticking to the Paris climate treaty.
Another misconception again... 1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin and there will be only 21 Million. No growth.
I find it bemusing how you are still try to defend the politicians which taught you to find Bitcoin bad, successfully distracting you from the elephant in the room.
So you shoot the messenger for all messages you are not agreeing to? Sure...
Trocatintas
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •You "shot" the scientists, not me.
Murkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Now you are shooting me as the messenger.
The "science" does not reflect the actual change in mining since 2021.
Try to find relevant and actual studies. The one you showed has data from digiconomist.com inside, which is a stooge of the dutch national bank, namely Alex de Vries. And his data is taken for granted, but it is based on even older data from 2018. You can research that yourself.
And again you are still neglecting the elephant in the room, instead you keep on hitting the butterfly.
Trocatintas
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •That's just intelectual dishonesty.
I'm out.
Murkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Sure, I am the only one discussing recent facts instead of simply pointing to an outdated study.
According to a 2023 ACS Sustainable Chemistry & Engineering paper, directing the surplus electricity from intermittent renewable energy sources such as wind and solar, to bitcoin mining could reduce electricity curtailment, balance the electrical grid, and increase the profitability of renewable energy plants—therefore accelerating the transition to sustainable energy and decreasing bitcoin's carbon footprint:
pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acssu…
Now I am out, too. I will not try anymore to change your opinion which is prefabricated by central bankers. Promised.
.. ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ bitPickup mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Don't get me wrong @Murkas Wylander I'm still undecided about the bitcoin energy issue on several levels, and find evolution and discussion utterly interesting as arguments come and go, sometimes it's " a country like Denmark" or hundereds of billiontrillion people like Pakistan where most of them have most likely no energy at all while AI right now is wasting energy like hell for pictures with six fingers and off course Wallstreet and Times square don't waste light at all ..
Anyway:
... mehr anzeigenYour China arguments are BS if you don't mention that China is installing more green energy than the rest of the world combined, is hitting his Paris accord targets, lowered the solar cell price by a thousand % for the whole world and you don't talk about the CO2 Emissions "western" countries account for since ever .. your's is just just right wing extremist whataboutism.
full stop
Don't get me wrong @Murkas Wylander I'm still undecided about the bitcoin energy issue on several levels, and find evolution and discussion utterly interesting as arguments come and go, sometimes it's " a country like Denmark" or hundereds of billiontrillion people like Pakistan where most of them have most likely no energy at all while AI right now is wasting energy like hell for pictures with six fingers and off course Wallstreet and Times square don't waste light at all ..
Anyway:
Your China arguments are BS if you don't mention that China is installing more green energy than the rest of the world combined, is hitting his Paris accord targets, lowered the solar cell price by a thousand % for the whole world and you don't talk about the CO2 Emissions "western" countries account for since ever .. your's is just just right wing extremist whataboutism.
full stop
That was a funny read!
Anyway bitcoin adoption is out of FOMO of people who have no clue what bitcoin is about and are storing their coins on websites, ETF's or "hard ware wallets" instead of using a simple FLOSS electrum.org wallet.
It's like the pied piper for everyone, crypto anarchists over libertarians, wall street traders and bankers to the Bukeles and fakebook and telegram filter bubble influencer know it all flat earthers!
All lined up like the chickens of Max und Morits on the block chain of bread crumbs.
It's a finite resource, as finite as the planet, coal and oil. And the next ice age will come sooner or later, only that there will be no more fossil fuels to heat the people that destroyed there ecological niche because of a consumerist civilization.
.. bad luck ..
Murkas Wylander
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •Okay, so that is your explanation? lol. You certainly want the easy and wrong ones ;)
I am since 11 years into bitcoin, and running Full Nodes and Lightning Nodes for years. I studied economics. I knew, this economically not so knowledgable forum will have a hard time to to understand the concepts and effects properly (e.g. you don't understand the benefits of ETFs for institutions from a process level), therefore you try to push me in a political corner, which seems the only thing you are able to ;)
See, you are just triggered by China, that is not the point. It is also not the point that they push solar power. They still keep building so many coal power plants, even without mining Bitcoin.
climateactiontracker.org/count…
So your argumentation is going completely the wrong route.
Targets
climateactiontracker.org.. ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ bitPickup mʕ•ﻌ•ʔm
Als Antwort auf anonymiss • • •sure
/zwinkersmily